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Eternalknight
Australia
119 Posts
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jamie
United Kingdom
194 Posts
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 Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 13:16:06   
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Nope ... not at all flattering!!!, but may I point out to all those people who read this review that it was written by a guy who HATES Fighting Fantasy and openly tells everyone so.
I am afraid that a bad review was on the cards before he even put pen to paper.
Jamie Wallis
Author
Myriador LTD |
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 16 Jun 2003 : 13:38:18
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There are a couple of ways that you could take this review, Jamie, but I wouldn't get dismayed. You set out to do pretty much exactly what he says that you actually did accomplish:
"Yes, they have accurately preserved the way the FF plot lines had no permanence or consistency of place or outcome. I actually found this dedication to the source endearing, as it demonstrated very clearly just how committed the writer are to recreating the feel of FF novels as closely as possible. It’s sort of charming to imagine players being as frustrated by this kind of stuff as I was as a youngster.
And of course if you liked these books, you’ll be over the moon about this approach."
On the one hand, you could accept that he dislikes FF and that coloured his review and so dismiss it as not exactly relevant.
On the other, you could accept that he is reviewing from the d20 standpoint and, after all, it is a d20 product that you have released and not an FF gamebook.
A good point is that the same criticisms are being levelled as they were in the earlier review that was discussed at great length (and from which certain questions remain unanswered).
Its up to you whether you decide to take the issues on board or whether you decide to ignore them as irrelevant to your busines plan.
If its the former, I wish you all the luck in the world and I know that I'll certainly buying your releases. If its the latter, then I think you're making a grave mistake. Just my $0.02. |
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MikeDymond
67 Posts
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Posted - 16 Jun 2003 : 14:47:27
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I actually think it is a really good review! Sure he has scored us down but as Jamie says, he was going to do that before he had even opened the books. If someone wants to buy a blue car no amount of persuading him is going to get him to like a red car. Does mean the red car is bad, no, it is just red!
I quote from the review:
"if you liked these books, you’ll be over the moon"
I might even ask to use this in our advertising! He has very clearly spelled out what we set out to achieve with these books. Recreate the classic feel of the FF books. Nothing else. It would seem to me that from his review we have done that spectacularly well! So much so that someone who hated the original even hates our books! Hurray!
To be a little bit more serious (although I mean everything I say above) there are two things that are worth mentioning. Firstly don't judge everything on Warlock. It was the first and is by far the most fractured book. Two reasons, firstly it was the first :-), and secondly it was the only books the Steve and Ian attempted to write together. If you look at the Sorcery series, the plot lines become much more involved and the whole adventure becomes more believable. Now I am not saying that they don't contain cliches or that in parts they don'tappear a bit linear but I am sure everyone would agree that they are a vast improvement on Warlock.
The second point is don't judge Myriador by the FF series alone. We have set out to achieve a very specific goal with this series and it would appear that we are achieving this goal admirably. Of course we will listen to the criticisms leveled at us and we will always strive to improve on what we have done before. But that should not take us away from our original goal. Give us time and you will see just how involved our products can be.
Hope that clears up any remaining questions.
Cheers Mike
Managing Director
Myriador Ltd |
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 16 Jun 2003 : 16:37:12
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All fair statements, Mike. I still look forward to future releases.
At the risk of asking you to repeat info that might be on other boards, is there any chance that you can give us any clue as to your general development schedule over the next year or so? Last time, the questions were receiving a general 'watch this space' response, but can you give us a little more substance?
(sorry if this is dealt with on another thread.) |
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MikeDymond
67 Posts
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Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 01:55:30
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I am not trying to be avasive but we genuinely do not have a production schedule that we can release at this time, give us time to grow as a company and for things to settle down (releasing our first products has been fairly eventfull). I think our plans for FF are fairly well known, we are going to release some more d20 conversions (how many depends on how well they sell), we will be releasing a FF RPG and we intend to release a whole load of d20 source material for the Titan world. I cannot tell you when all of this will be out, I just don't know myself and I don't want to promise something that just keeps changing.
As for other projects, yes we have loads of plans but nothing concrete yet. d20 Modern, probably, another licence, possibly, stuff outside the RPG arena, definetely, the only question is when.
Hope this helps.
Cheers Mike
Managing Director
Myriador Ltd |
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Eternalknight
Australia
119 Posts
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Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 09:20:56    
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeDymond
another licence, possibly,
Let the speculation begin!
(just kidding  )
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 13:01:38
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Why not! Speculation is good!
Top of my wish list would be the Orb licence.
That world is so good, I simply can't believe that its not being sought after. Maybe Mark Smith & Jamie Thompson have their own plans though. |
Edited by - Rabel on 17 Jun 2003 13:02:39
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Motorskills
United Kingdom
2 Posts
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Posted - 18 Jun 2003 : 11:12:39
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Mike, it is good to hear your mature response to this. I can certainly sympathise with Jamie, no-one likes to have their stuff slammed.
But to dismiss Steve Darlington's review as unfair and irrelevant because he wasn't a fan of the gamebooks is simply to miss the point. Nostalgia will only get you so far - a duff product is a duff product.
Now I hasten to add that I have yet to see the product myself. But my opinion is already biased by reading Steve's review.
Certainly a positive review would have been preferred - I am now holding off buying WoFM as a result. Steve Darlington is very well respected, and his opinion matters to me.
BUT...
I'm not sure I would have bought WoFM anyway - as others have said, it was never that great an adventure. If Steve had given it 5/5 then I _might_ have shelled out.
What does concern me is if the later gamebooks - which do have stronger stories and better scope for "translation" - are converted verbatim, without the necessary effort to make them both flexible and FUN.
As an FF fan I am not expecting to be faced with a d20 version of the verbatim gamebook. I really can't conceive that anything like that WOULD be fun, and I think that is exactly what SteveD detected.
I would be interested to hear from you guys if this concern of mine is genuine. Are the translations so rigid that there is a risk that the flexibility and fun found from true roleplaying will be drained out of the product?
If the concern is geneuine, will adequate attention be paid to it in the future products that I genuinely _am_ interested in purchasing. I want Deathtrap Dungeon to FEEL fun (and dangerous), I don't need it to be a verbatim replica.
In fact I don't WANT it to be a verbatim replica.
Motor
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Motorskills
United Kingdom
2 Posts
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Posted - 18 Jun 2003 : 11:24:59
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Gah...most of this has already been covered - and far more eloquently - by Rabel on the other thread. 
1. Fell free to respond to any new points I accidentally raised
2. Most of what Rabel is asking for is NOT unreasonable or even that much more effort. I might steer away from "extending" Firetop Mountain to the deeper levels and somesuch. But the products have to stand on their own two feet. Verbatim copies of the gamebooks will not achieve that.
The FF gamebooks worked because they allowed the power of the reader's imagination to be unleashed. The modules have to try to get close to that by allowing the DM the flexibility to describe the story and really bring it to life. |
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 18 Jun 2003 : 14:14:22
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Hi Motorskills, and welcome! Its nice to see someone else has appeared in the corner I was arguing myself into! (I was beginning to feel a little isolated...  ) |
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MikeDymond
67 Posts
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Posted - 18 Jun 2003 : 19:17:33
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You raise two interesting points:
1. Are the modules rigid
2. Are they verbatim
Point 1 - Are they rigid
Absolutely no! How can you create an RPG adventure that is rigid? (answer, write a gamebook :-) There are two major factors that influence the fluidity of these adventures. The DM, and the nature of RPG. If the DM doesn't like something she can change it, just like she always does. By their nature modules tend to be a bit limiting and they always need a really good DM to bring them to life. No more so with ours than with anyone elses. Secondly, the nature of RPG dictates that you have much much more freedom than in a gamebook. You get to a junction that goes left or right? Well if you want to you can turn around and go back too! That on it's own completely changes the way that you will play these adventures. Get to the end and figure out you need a bunch of keys, well you can turn around and go looking for them (try doing that in a gamebook!).
Point 2 - Are they Verbatim
We have stuck as closely to the originals as we feel we can. Where possible we have used the same maps, we have used the same monsters (people want to know that behind that door is the same Orc they fought as a kid!) the same traps (but in general we have made them far far less deadly). Does that mean that it will play the same, absolutely not, see point 1. An RPG session is just such a different beast.
We also come back to the other aspect of point 1, the DM. We know that some people want to play these adventures just like we have writen them, full of nostalgia and old school gaming. We also know that some of you want something else, something based on FF but a bit different, well you come back to the DMs first perogative, she can do whatever she likes! She can change as many encounters as she wants. She didn't like that trap the first time around, well then it's not there this time! However if we started with this premise and modified things as we went along to fit with what we thought the modern gamer would want then I still don't think we would have pleased everyone and all of you out there who really looked forward to going toe to toe with the Warlock and his pet dragon, just like you did when you where 12, would have been robbed of that joy.
We think the originals are classics and that is what we have tried to recreate, if people want to take what we have done and move it on, great, that is the joy of RPG. In fact I would be delighted to hear any of your ideas as to how you would chang things. Would you keep the maps? Change the monsters? Maybe you could create an entirely new adventure based in the same dungeon complex. Send me your thoughts.
Cheers Mike
Managing Director
Myriador Ltd |
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 27 Jun 2003 : 13:28:00
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeDymond
We think the originals are classics and that is what we have tried to recreate, if people want to take what we have done and move it on, great, that is the joy of RPG. In fact I would be delighted to hear any of your ideas as to how you would chang things. Would you keep the maps? Change the monsters? Maybe you could create an entirely new adventure based in the same dungeon complex. Send me your thoughts.
Its not so much changes from the original module that we're suggesting, but expansion, explanation and logic. Its difficult to come up with suggestions off the top of our heads because, for many of us, its been many a year since we last read any of the books. But based on your request, I decided to go and read House of Hell and make a few notes of things that I would feel that I would have to deal with when designing a d20 conversion. I include them, with some suggested solutions, below.
[01] There are no toilets or bathrooms in the entire house.
The map, or room descriptions, as it stands, would have to be modified to include toilets and possibly other utilities that any house of that genre would need.
[02] There are no cars parked at the house, so how did the 40+ congregation arrive there for Brother Isaacson's ceremony? I would suggest that this may have something to do with the strange reception room. Perhaps the large mural is a portal of some kind?
[03] The house is haunted by a number of different spirits and ghosts, some benign, some hostile. Some are free-roaming (but tied to the house itself), others are tied to particular rooms/objects. Which is which would have to be decided. Is the young woman tied to the Appollyon room, for instance? Or is she able to seek out the PCs wherever they are in the house? Is she the ghost of Lady Margaret of Danvers (as in the portrait in the reception hall)?
[04] Why are intruders offered such a rich meal when it is midnight when they arrive? How is it that it takes such a relatively short length of time to prepare? Where are the cooks, etc? Are they also part of the brethren? And where do the brethren come from? Are they like a masonic society that includes members of the local police force and judiciary, perhaps? That might make things even more difficult for the PCs if they manage to escape and seek out the authorities.
[05] Why are only certain foodstuffs drugged when offered to intruders? Indeed, why are they simply not just over-powered, imprisoned and then disposed of? Well, the Earl has to be sure that their disappearances will not cause more trouble and so must take time and care to question them and appear normal. Further, perhaps the nature of the house itself demands the consumption of fear and the Earl purposefully draws out the killing process to feed its appetite.
[06] If the house itself is sentient, then perhaps there is an attic room that may house its essence? Perhaps the Invisible Enemy that stalked the upper floors is the personification of the house's sentience which manifests whenever the PCs try to hole up somewhere, thus keeping them moving and generating the fear which it feeds upon.
[07] The address on the letter in the drawing room is a lead to another group of devil-worshippers in another country. This is one significant area in which the scenario can be expanded. Possibly by taking the PCs through the mural in the reception room to end up in the lands of Count Pravemi. Perhaps the PCs will need to retrieve something from the court of Pravemi before they can defeat the evil in the House of Drumer.
[08] Can the prisoners of The Hypnotic Eye be released? Who are they and how can they help?
[09] Why is the door that leads to the secret passage from the dungeon not secret itself? The book details it as ‘a half-hidden wooden door’.
[10] Why does the trap in the Eblis room lead to a secret passageway? Is it actually intended as a trap or as an escape route? If it is intended as a trap, then perhaps spikes should be set at the northernmost part of the secret passage?
[11] Why can the demon only be defeated in a red room (symbolising the fight taking place in Hell)?
[12] Can the spirits that are trapped in the portraits be released?
[13] Is the Duchess of Brewster right? Can the house not be escaped unless the Master is defeated? How does this manifest itself? A Ravenloft-type fog, perhaps?
[14] What is the mission of the man being held in the Asmodeus room? What effect does he have on the scenario if he is released from that room?
[15] The trapped chair in the dining room is virtually useless if it only works on the victims wrists as it requires them both to be in the correct position before it is sprung. Whilst Franklins could watch for the correct moment, it would be difficult to judge and useless against an angered guest. Perhaps the clasps should appear around the biceps and neck also?
[16] Can the scenario be realistically scaled to suit more than one PC without diverging vastly from the gamebook's procedure.
[17] If the PCs go poking through the grounds of the house before they enter, then they will at least discover the corpse of the hanged man. What else might they come across? Are there any outbuildings to the house? If so, what horrors/secrets do they contain?
[18] Who are the corpses in the Azazel room?
[19] How would the fear mechanic be introduced? By setting it in d20 Call of Cthulhu or creating a new rule such as was done for Luck. If so, will d20 Modern be used as the base system? If so, what campaign setting? Shadow Chasers would seem most likely. But the original gamebook assumed that the PC was not an adventurer or investigator and that they had no foreknowledge of the house or its dangers. How would this be managed? If the PCs have foreknowledge, what is to prevent a gung-ho party from just firebombing the place without bothering to go inside?
[20] What are the histories of the prisoners in the Dungeon?
These are just a few questions and ideas that were generated from a read through the gamebook. In my opinion, any serious RPG conversion would have to take them into account and explain them, whilst also expanding on the original material to include extra rooms, including maybe an attic room and other areas in the caverns, and also a new complex to explore such as the Castle of Count Pravemi.
As can be seen, expansions can be included into the scenario without contradicting any of the original material. For instance, no explanation of the mural was provided other than what it appeared to be. If the PCs discover that it is actually the means by which the devil-worshippers arrive at the house (it is in the Reception Room, after all) then that doesn't contradict the original book, it just fills in a blank (i.e. that being the question as to how the congregation arrived).
I hope this helps to clarify my position on what further work I think needs to be done on the conversions to help secure more favourable reviews in the future.
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Edited by - Rabel on 27 Jun 2003 13:48:08
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Madrox
Spain
1 Posts
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Posted - 30 Aug 2003 : 13:01:11
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Hi there!:
I'm a FF fan from Spain. Here, around 18 gamebooks from the FF series were translated to spanish in the late-80's, and also the complete set of Sorcery! and many others, although they had here far less succes than in the UK and the US I'm afraid. Anyway, I've met many gamers here that grew up reading these books, and they remember them with a smile. When I found your link, I run to my RPG-shop to see if your products were between the imports of the week. They weren't, so I felt a bit disappointed, but I think it's just a matter of time to get your conversions to d20 system.
I'm a D&D fan also, and when I buy an adventure, I want it to be worth of my money. I want to support the "Rabel-campaign" for expanding a bit the original "plots" of the gamebooks in these conversions, at least to make them believable to an adult minded. I'm 21 now, and I began reading gamebooks when I was 10 or something. In the books, when something happened to my character (e. g.: entering the room 321 means a certain death) , even if the book didn't give and explanation for it, I TRIED to imagine an explanation for myself;this way, the own reader makes the universe of the gamebook bigger and far more attractive and mysterious.
The fact is that in a RPG conversion of a gamebook, your character has the possibility to interact with the environment in a way he couldn't in the gamebooks, so possibly if your character dies everytime he enters in room 321, he'd like to know there's a good reason for that, and maybe the new PC created shall search for a way to remove the trap or dispel the spell. As DM, one cannot simply say: "Well, I'm sorry, but you just cannot find a reason for the trap to be there simply because there's no reason!!! The text of the module says there's a trap impossible to remove and that should be enough for you!!" You say then that DM can change everything he(or she)wants in the text to make it agree with what he likes. But I'm not gonna buy a module for 16 or 17 euros, dollars or whatever just to see that I have to rewrite the entire adventure!!
Gamebooks and RPG adventures are different ways to live fantastic adventures. In the same way, there isn't a truly faithful set of movies of the Lord of the Rings (A saga of 10 movies??), just because you cannot put on screen everything the book tells: cinema and books are also different ways of telling stories, each one with their pros and cons. This way, a conversion from a gamebook to a RPG adventure needs also some work to make it believable in the RPG game-system, which offers many more ways of action that the "turn to page 45 or 67".
Nostalgia is a good hook for gamers, I'm sure, but you simply cannot uphold a competitive product in the actual market with that.
Anyway, instead of saying "you can, as DM, change whatever you want" and giving a bunch of game statistics, you should include the "expansion" of the original gamebook that Rabel asks for (me too for sure!) and then, if anyone wants to ignore them, it's ok. The fact is: you should offer more for less, not viceversa. That's a competitive product.
After this comment (hope it has worked for something!) here's my idea of improving your future FF releases: what about a text in two colours, or in different types of letters, one describing just the original plot of the gamebook and the other adding the "extra" explanations? I think it's not a bad idea.
Well, anyway, I would like to say thanks to the Myriador staff who are giving us this great opportunity to revisit our childhood, and also to the FF fans who kept the spirit alive throughout the years. Best of lucks! |
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 21:30:42
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Any additions to the "Rabel Campaign" are welcome!
Cheers Madrox, though I think we're in a losing battle... |
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jamie
United Kingdom
194 Posts
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Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 22:56:23
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Come on Rabel... there is no battle here. All of you comments have been noted.
I hope when you get SORCERY! The Shamutanti Hills and Deathtrap Dungeon you will see, what I hope you will consider, an improvement.
Please let me know what you think of the new Products
Jamie Wallis
Author
Myriador LTD |
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New review on RPGnet
