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MikeDymond
59 Posts
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Eternalknight
Australia
106 Posts
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 Posted - 17 May 2003 : 08:38:35       
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| Not overly flatering... still won't stop me when the books finally get to Australia! |
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 19 May 2003 : 11:01:19
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The review is a little concerning. I suspected that Myriador may have gone for a simple conversion without restructuring or seeking to explain the originally naive dungeon format but I was hoping for some level of explanation.
The original dungeon was aimed at children and holds together perfectly for the lower age groups but d20 is played probably predominantly by twenty-somethings and above.
Static dungeons don't hold together well for these groups. I remember the first dungeons that I ever created: in the first room there are two orcs, in the second room there are two wraiths, in the third room there is a wizard who will help you if you say the right thing to him and so on.
Now, for kids, this doesn't really matter, but for adults this format is really testing the suspension of disbelief. Why don't the wraiths kill the wizard or the orcs, for that matter? There might be a reason, but without one stated in the adventure, you're not really releasing a well-thought out product.
Do you guys (Myriador) intend to take the reviewers comments on board at all and maybe think about including explanations / restructures to deal with these issues for your further releases or are you intent on 'keeping things simple' and leaving such explanations of the ecological disparities to the DM?
I would say that in taking on the conversion of these gamebooks, you owe it to their fans to do the best possible job you can and aim to at least explain the dungeon formats to the DM, if not restructure them slightly in order to become a little more dynamic and usable. In not improving over the original children's format, you're in effect saying 'well, thats not our problem, thats how it was written' and so blaming it on the original authors who did not have your market audience in mind.
I'd be interested in everyone's view on this. Is my stance unreasonable on this issue? I feel that Myriador will continue to receive dismissive reviews if they do not seek to 'mature' the gamebooks that they're converting. |
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MikeDymond
59 Posts
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Posted - 19 May 2003 : 18:55:25
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We set out from the start to publish conversions of original FF gamebooks. These are classic stories and we felt that they deserved to be brought to a new generation of gamers without us messing about with them too much.
If you want fully explained adventures with deep underlying plot lines and backstory, then look somewhere else :-)
We are commited to bringing the feel and style of the FF gamebooks to the d20 world and we know that for every person that doesn't like this approach there are 10 die hard fans who would complain if we changed even one small detail.
It is also worth pointing out that Warlock is probably the most discordant of the FF games (it is the only one that was written jointly by Steve and Ian) and even the same reviewer says as much in his review of Caverns of the Snow Witch.
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9359.phtml
Keep your comments coming.
Cheers Mike
Managing Director
Myriador Ltd |
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 19 May 2003 : 20:53:35
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You've mentioned that your intent is to bring these classic FF adventures to a "new generation of gamers" whilst also stating that "die hard fans" would not want them changed.
I would suggest to you that any "die hard fans" of the original books are now probably in their mid-20's to early 30's and that, if they are buying d20 products, they are very unlikely to be part of the "new generation of gamers". Its an either/or thing, in my view.
Either you are intending to appeal to the younger newbies or you are intending to appeal to the die-hards.
I am a die-hard fan of the originals, and in my early 30s. As a consumer of d20 products, however, I want intelligent, well-constructed adventures for my money and not simple conversions of gamebooks that were aimed at pre-adolescents/early teenagers. If the conversions were updated to appeal to the now more mature and discerning RPG audience, then I would be more inclined to snap them up like hot cakes.
Take the 'Return to' series of 2e D&D adventures, as an example. Now no-one would dispute that Against the Giants, or Tomb of Horrors, or The Temple of Elemental Evil are D&D classics.
But compare them to their 'Return to' companions and its very evident just how much things have moved on. The plotlines, depth of thought, sophistication and general product quality soars above the originals. And I really think that this is what you should be aiming to do with the FF conversions.
So, I think the question comes down to target market. Are you primarily targetting the new younger gamers who have picked up D&D as a response to the film, Harry Potter, and the Lord of the Rings movies, or are you trying to appeal to those people who grew up with the gamebooks? Because you can't really have both.
If its the former, then I think you're missing the main market for these conversions. Its sort of like George Lucas' sad belief (IMHO) that his new trilogy should be appealing to the kids of today, rather than the people who fell in love with the originals.
If its the second target market group, then I think that a simple almost one-to-one conversion method is definitely not a sensible long-term business strategy. We 'die-hard fans' are now grown-ups (even though we do still pretend to be wizards and priests and kill dragons - sigh - my friend's dad used to call role-playing 'playing at being fairies'... can't say I disagree...) and we demand products that are well-constructed, well-thought-out and sufficiently well-developed to be worth our money.
Now, sales for WoFTM and CotSW are likely to be pretty good because they are new and exciting to those of us who grew into gaming with the original gamebooks. But if the conversions are just d20 statistics in place of Skill and Stamina, then I would expect sales to fall off very quickly when people find that far better products are available for similar prices.
I would love for Myriador to be successful and go on to converting all of the great FF classics, but I really wish that you would aim them at people like me, and the rest of us who were fans of the originals, who have now aged the 20 years or so since they were released.
And whilst I agree that WoFTM is a discordant book, the same reviewer criticises the same mistakes made in CotSW - i.e., that the monsters seem to exist solely to fight the adventurers and are not otherwise a real part of their world.
And in inviting me to 'look somewhere else' if I want explanations and understandable plotlines/dungeon ecologies, you're in effect alienating me from the very books that I grew up with - 'these aren't for you, you're too old and discerning, these are for the kiddies who don't care about that sort of stuff'. Again, as a die-hard fan, I feel that I'm pretty indicative of your central market.
Again, I'd really like to know other people's opinions about this. My intent is not to rant - I just feel quite passionately about the original books and think that some simply fantastic conversions can be done if a bit more thought is put into it. |
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Eternalknight
Australia
106 Posts
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Posted - 20 May 2003 : 09:45:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Rabel
but for adults this format is really testing the suspension of disbelief
...he says, talking about a game where magic and dragons exist 
Seriously though, I would have thought that the biggest selling point of these games was nostalgia, even though the reviews suggest not to buy out of this. They are good for young kids too, as were the original Fighting Fantasy books.
As for making the adventures realistic, why? Personally, if I were to buy a d20 conversion of a FF book and find it substantially different to the original, I would have to fly to England and flog the hell out of Mike and Jamie. Sure, a lot of more experienced gamers like a 'realistic' (I hate that word when it comes to D&D) adventure, myself included, but what is wrong with a fun dungeon romp that makes no sense? I guess it comes down to someone's personal style of gaming. If you like a realistic, 'role-playing' adventure, buy the books for the nostalgia and a good read, or else leave them be. If you like a hack-'n-slash, 'roll-playing' adventure, these are probably perfect.
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 20 May 2003 : 12:40:10
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I know your response was in jest regarding the suspension of disbelief, but that is what it is all about, no? The world has to be internally consistent to provide a solid background for the campaign or the players have little to work on.
Nostalgia is the initial hook, I agree, and that was my point regarding why I believe that, if the conversions are not aimed at the more mature audience, sales will severely drop off once the first few are released. I mean, this happened with gamebooks themselves as well.
I don't think its a sufficient business strategy to just do simple conversions. People will get tired of them pretty quickly just as people have done with the gamut of d20 products.
I mean how many people snatched up Sword & Sorcery's Creature Collection simply because the MM hadn't been released and then regretted the outlay because the Creature Collection is pretty bad?
People, myself included despite the reviews, will go out and buy WoFTM and CotSW for novelty value alone. But if the modules aren't playable for groups who are serious about their gaming (i.e, try to present consistent, believable, self-referentially-valid worlds) then they will stop buying them pretty quickly, myself included.
I don't want to undermine the work that Jamie has put into the conversions - I'm sure its pretty good in and of itself - but the fact remains that to do a simple FF to d20 conversion is not a particularly difficult thing to do. I myself have run several off-the-cuff D&D conversions of FF books for single players - the game book in one hand, and the 1st Ed MM in the other, as I'm sure many other fans of the gamebooks did when they moved onto D&D or other RPG systems. To just present the d20 statistics for the FF creatures isn't really an effort worth paying for, is it? You're really just paying for the novelty, the packaging and the artwork, aren't you?
But look - I'm not advocating a rewrite but an extension. And by extension I don't mean add loads into the original dungeon that obviously wasn't there but add explanatory and exploratory material that could, and probably should, have been there, if the original formats and target market had allowed it.
With a bit of thought, you could have allowed d20 players to uncover further secrets beneath Firetop Mountain that could have explained what was really going on whilst also providing a framework for why certain elements of the dungeon are ecologically unsound.
Now, if there is fresh material in there that dovetails nicely with the original material whilst structuring it, then those conversions are going to be far more exciting than a simple conversion. I mean, hell, you need new stuff in there to interest the players, a lot of whom will be more than familiar with the original gamebook adventures, don't you? And if that new material, which matures the conversions for the older, more discerning original FF market, is developed with the approval of the original author, then isn't that a simply 'must-have' product?
Again, I point to the 'Return To' series. If the authors of the new material didn't update and expand the original material, but simply converted them to 2e or 3e, do you think they would have sold as well as they did? Owning the originals, I wouldn't have bothered with them and I doubt that a lot of other people would have either.
If Myriador are content to release the conversions as 'nostalgia and a good read' as you say, EternalKnight, then I think we all know that they're not going to sell well after the first few are released. There has to be more substance to them.
d20 companies are going out of business left, right, and centre at the moment, and thats because d20 consumers are becoming far more discerning. There's a gamut of bad products out there now, and it has become incumbent on the consumer to apply a lot more criticism in their buying habits. Sooner or later, there is going to be Wizards, and probably four or five other d20 companies. The rest will have been swallowed up or have gone bust. If Myriador do not mature and expand their releases, I feel that they will be in grave danger of being in the latter division. |
Edited by - Rabel on 20 May 2003 13:16:19
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MikeDymond
59 Posts
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Posted - 20 May 2003 : 14:55:38
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I cannot agree more. If all that we ever release are conversions of the FF gamebooks then we do not have a future as a company. That is why that has never been our plan. These first titles fill a specific need in the market (two in fact). Firstly they allow us oldies to re-live our childhood and play these classic adventures in the d20 system. They are designed to be one-off adventures, the sort of thing you play when you get home from the pub with your mates. Very simple to get going, no real thought involved. The second need that they fill are trying to bridge the gap between the gamebooks and full-on modern RPGs. Over the last 20 years RPGs have matured along with the people who play them but everyone sems to have forgotten that we used to enjoy those dungeons with very little thought to how they worked or why they where there. You try telling a 12 year old that it is far more fun working out the political manouverings of some kingdom rather than just mindlessly killing monsters. Here in the UK the gamebooks have been re-released and are once again selling very very well but unlike the 80's there is nowhere for these new gamers to go once they have outgrown them. There is a huge void waiting to be filled. That is what we aim to do (amongst other things).
Of course we also have other plans up our sleeve but there are only so many hours in the day so I am afraid you are going to have to be patient :-)
I love involved game worlds and more sophisticated adventures and look forward to getting my teeth into some of our projects in the pipeline, but that is not what the d20 FF is designed to do. Not yet in any case. What we do plan to do is to expand on these adventures (much like the original series did) with much more detailed backgrounds to the world and the monsters who live in it. And who knows what else we will add to the system.
I also agree with you view of the d20 market. I see it becoming much more specialised. Far too many publishers are trying to chase the same market and most will fail. If we did what you suggest then what is to seperate us from the crowd? We are trying to be different and firmly believe that this approach will see us through.
Cheers Mike
Managing Director
Myriador Ltd |
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 21 May 2003 : 10:23:14
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MikeDymond wrote: "They are designed to be one-off adventures, the sort of thing you play when you get home from the pub with your mates. Very simple to get going, no real thought involved."
Thats what Dungeon magazine is for, Mike. It costs a third or so of the price of one of your modules and contains four or five times as many adventures - all of which (more or less) are well-thought-out, well-constructed, and ecologically-sound.
MikeDymond wrote: "...everyone sems to have forgotten that we used to enjoy those dungeons with very little thought to how they worked or why they where there."
No we haven't. We were 10, 11, or 12 years old when we played them and we weren't interested in the fact that they were disparate or illogical. But nowadays, whilst we still enjoy the occasional meaningless dungeon romp, we still expect the monsters to exist as part of a dynamic environment: if there is a room with some free-roaming life-hating incorporeal undead next to a chamber of orcs, we expect those orcs to be dead a long time before we get to them.
So you seem to be saying that, yes, unfortunately Rabel, we have decided to target these conversions at kids again rather than updating them to once again appeal to their original audience. If the FF re-releases do indeed take off again, then perhaps you will corner the young crowd that cross-over to RPGs but not a lot of them *will* crossover and they are a very small percentage of the d20 market. And yes, you will sell a few of these modules to those of us of the original market who want to "re-live our childhood," but we're not going to keep wanting to do that: thats a "one-off adventure" thing, as you say. And that only needs people to buy one or two scenarioes.
MikeDymond wrote: "If we did what you suggest then what is to seperate us from the crowd?"
You have one massive advantage that separates you from the crowd: you own the license to convert Fighting Fantasy. Other companies have to slowly build up awareness of their products: your products are instantly recognisable.
You're currently capitalising on somebody else's past success. WoFTM and CotSW are not selling well because word has got around that they are great d20 modules, are they? No. They are selling because people instantly know what WoFTM and CotSW are, and want to see what you've done to them.
Unfortunately, the feedback that is now spreading is that you haven't done a hell of a lot. You've simply repackaged them.
You're pretty much admitting that you are seeking a new market for your products (FF-RPG crossover kids). Now, I again put it to you that you're missing the main market for your product: the very people who instantly recognise the product and buy it to see what you've done to their beloved gamebook.
"Oh", they say, "its pretty much exactly the same. It hasn't been extended or improved at all. They've kept the linear format so that it plays just like the gamebook. That doesn't really work in d20, does it? Oh well, I'm sure we'll have a laugh for an evening, and then I'll go out and buy a real scenario to get our teeth into."
Maintaining the original format of the gamebooks isn't going to engage this crowd for very long.
Come on, Mike. It seems like you're just cashing in and doing quick 'n' easy conversions rather than releasing a quality stand-alone product. You're using the nostalgia of FF as a crux to be able to release sub-standard material - you're relying on the assumption that people will buy Myriador's products because they loved the original stuff. And people will, as I have said, for the first few releases. But if the conversions continue to be simplistic, people will stop buying them. You've got to expand and improve on the original material or you will just become progressively marginalised. The only companies that will survive in this market are those whose products will appeal to the entire d20 market and not just a sub-section of newbies. |
Edited by - Rabel on 21 May 2003 10:27:00
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Dumpster
1 Posts
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Posted - 21 May 2003 : 12:13:01
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FF Rocks! the d20 conversions Rock!
If the guys at Myriador had changed the books like you want then I would have been right behind EternalKnight in the arse kicking contest!!!
Rabel, you wnat deep RPG, go someplace else. Leave FF alone! I am going to stay right here and look forward to Deathtrap! Probably the grand-daddy of all dungeon bashes. I also cant wait for the Sorcery series, they Rock! FF with a plot and everything :-)
Rock on! |
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Eternalknight
Australia
106 Posts
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Posted - 21 May 2003 : 12:34:21
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Rabel, I think you missed an important point in Mike's post.
If all that we ever release are conversions of the FF gamebooks then we do not have a future as a company. That is why that has never been our plan.
Mike is obviously hinting at other things to come here, probably along the lines of what you are saying.
Quote from Rabel: you're relying on the assumption that people will buy Myriador's products because they loved the original stuff. And people will, as I have said, for the first few releases.
Putting these two quotes together, it looks obvious that the FF conversions COULD be just the first few releases. We have WoFTM and CotSW, we are getting DD... who is to know what Myriador have coming after that? It could be new adventures set on Titan, a FF campaign setting, or something completely different. |
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 21 May 2003 : 14:30:53
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I think I need to make a few things clear.
Firstly, Dumpster's post is defensive of FF and so suggests that I am attacking it. Dumpster, I am a huge fan of FF. I own all 59 of the original gamebooks, all 4 of the Sorcery! books, Out of the Pit, the FF RPG book, and even all 13 issues of Warlock magazine. A chant of "FF rocks!" does not intimidate me because I'm probably one of the most qualified people to make it. I understand the format of FF. I am not attacking FF.
I can't 'go someplace else' and 'leave FF alone' because I've always been here. The FF gamebooks are as much a part of my history as anything that you could spent about 8 years of your life voraciously indulged in.
I would have thought that it was abundantly clear that the reason I am asking these questions is because I actually care about FF and what Myriador are doing. Why do I care? Because I grew up on FF and gamebooks in general. Like so many other people, especially in the UK, they were my stepping stone into RPGs in general. Should FF books remain aimed at 8-14 year olds? Yes! Should d20 conversions of the FF books continue to be aimed at 8-14 year olds? In my opinion, most definitely not! Why? Because that market is tiny in d20 terms, and it also ignores the very market who grew up on the gamebooks, who are now in their mid-20s and 30's.
My intentions, in making these posts, are to be constructively critical and not to be generally negative. It is my hope that Myriador will think about some of the issues raised and perhaps begin to make some changes in their conversion strategy that will lead to more favourable reviews.
I don't think that the sort of unconditional praise expounded by Dumpster, or general detraction for that matter, is constructive to anyone.
Secondly, I am not advocating for FF to be converted to deep RPG. I am not arguing for changes to the original adventures but for expansion and improvements upon them to make them viable for the wider d20 market. The original adventures should be there, but they should be a part of a wider scenario that explains and structures the original material.
This does not mean including long descriptions of political motivations for NPCs or introducing convoluted new plot elements. It means adding infrastructure to elements that simply wasn't included or explained in the original. It means adding other areas to dungeons that couldn't be explored in the gamebooks - such as detailing either branch of that final crossroads in WoFTM. And so on, and so forth.
I didn't miss the point in Mike's post, EternalKnight, but yes, I did fail to address it.
He intimated that they would not only be doing FF conversions. This suggests to me that they will continue to do FF conversions but also release supplementary material, such as a d20 Out of the Pit, a d20 Titan, and so on. Eventually, yes, new Titan-based adventures as well.
But how does this make it OK to simply repackage the FF gamebooks in a d20 format without bothering to improve upon or expand the original material which, being 20 years old or so, aimed at children, and in an extremely-limited format, could be done quite easily?
We know that they will continue to release FF conversions because [1] that is their central license and [2] they're doing The Shamutanti Hills so there are at least another three Sorcery! conversions coming.
Along with other general statements that have been made on these boards, we know that the FF conversions are pretty central to the current company strategy and so can assume that there will be a lot more to come unless sales quickly drop off and they go out of business.
My central concern is that the FF conversions are being done 'quick 'n' easy' with no real extra substantial material being added to make them viable general d20 products. New material may well be released in companion products, but does that make it OK for a lack of effort on the gamebook conversions, which is what has got us all interested in this company in the first place.
I suppose that two of the central questions are these:
If the FF gamebooks had never existed, and the WoFTM was an original d20 adventure written by Jamie Wallis and released by Myriador, do you think it would have deserved to sell as well as it probably has done?
Do you think that any of us would be writing to this forum or taking an interest in the future of Myriador if they were only releasing original material?
My point is that the standard of the material has to be able to stand alone in terms of design quality rather than relying on the nostalgia of a market that is now more mature and discerning, or the smaller FF-RPG newbies who won't care. |
Edited by - Rabel on 21 May 2003 14:59:58
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Eternalknight
Australia
106 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2003 : 09:55:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Rabel
I suppose that two of the central questions are these:
If the FF gamebooks had never existed, and the WoFTM was an original d20 adventure written by Jamie Wallis and released by Myriador, do you think it would have deserved to sell as well as it probably has done?
Do you think that any of us would be writing to this forum or taking an interest in the future of Myriador if they were only releasing original material?
My point is that the standard of the material has to be able to stand alone in terms of design quality rather than relying on the nostalgia of a market that is now more mature and discerning, or the smaller FF-RPG newbies who won't care.
To answer your questions: no and no. But they do exist, and here we are.
I can see the point you are trying to make, but can you see mine? What is wrong with Myriador releasing FF conversions - straight conversions from the books - for the first few releases? Make some money, then knuckle down to tackle other things, like maybe new adventures set in Titan, that are more 'mature' (not Book of Vile Darkness mature, but in terms of storyline). Of course, eventually we should see adventures such as Spellbreaker, Night Dragon, etc, which would probably be more to your liking.
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2003 : 12:07:06
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There's nothing 'wrong' with releasing straight one-to-one conversions per se, but its saddening to hear that a wealth of opportunity to expand and improve upon the original material has not been taken and that they are not being marketed at an adult audience.
There are two factors at work: product quality versus time to market.
The more time you spend in development on the former, the greater the product quality but also the greater the time to market. And vice versa.
It would seem that Myriador have opted for a quick time to market in order to begin generating revenue and I can accept that Myriador, as a new company, have a requirement to get some cashflow happening.
What I would like to know, however, is: do Myriador intend to improve product quality in the future in order to appeal to the wider d20 market, or are they content with their current product quality and aim to continue marketing to the FF-RPG crossover market, composed probably of 10-16 year olds?
Just because they have said they will release more than just FF gamebook conversions does not mean that they will release products targeted at the wider d20 market. Mike has seemed to indicate only an intention to release FF supplementary material which would suggest an intention to continue targeting the same market.
Note: my use of the word 'quality' is not meant to suggest that the current releases are sub-standard in terms of packaging but that, in my opinion, a minimum amount of time has been spent on doing a one-to-one conversion without adding any new material or expanding or improving upon the original material, which, as I said in an earlier post, is 20 years old, aimed at 8-14 year olds, and gleaned from a very limited format.
If Myriador do intend to put more time into development when they have more comfortable revenues, then all well and good, but there are a few potential problems with this approach that spring to mind.
They may have become pigeon-holed and ignored by those they eventually intend to appeal to by having released 'd20 lite' products. And, in order to generate interest for their products, they will have released a lot of the FF classics in 'lite' format. This would leave either
[1] the less well-known FF books to market to the wider market, or
[2] original material, or
[3] re-releasing the 'lite' versions as full versions.
Problems here are that, with [1] and [2], people may not be interested, having already tagged the company as releasing sub-standard products, and [3] re-releasing redeveloped products leads people to believe that the first version was a failure and so they don't bother with the second either.
My suggestion is that Myriador should start to spend more time in development now, rounding future products out properly so that they will appeal to the mass market, instead of continuing with simplistic conversions. And the reason why I think that they should do this, as I have already argued, is that they will go out of business if they don't. |
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Eternalknight
Australia
106 Posts
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Posted - 22 May 2003 : 13:00:02
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Well that one I can't answer  |
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Rabel
United Kingdom
37 Posts
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Posted - 27 May 2003 : 09:45:06
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| Of course but Mike? Care to give your opinion on the points raised over the last few posts of this thread? Do you agree/disagree with the analysis? |
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New Review
